northwest Are big coils throughly feasible for gold detectors and up to what point?
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australian electronic gold prospecting forum.com  |  Detector Technology and Electronics and new detectors  |  Detector Coils (Moderator: Goldman)  |  Topic: Are big coils throughly feasible for gold detectors and up to what point? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Are big coils throughly feasible for gold detectors and up to what point?  (Read 1105 times)
Muntari
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« Reply #20 on: Saturday January 26 2019 20:42:33 AEDT PM »

  
  
  
  
  


I am a little lost here Dontbsme,

If you make such a coil, then you would know the benefits and some of the problems with these size coils on our goldfields.
Your questions seemed to be aimed at finding information on who is doing what..

cheers

muntari

Not really. I have been manufacturing these big coils for IB, but never for PI, so I do not know exactly what to expect with the PI detectors.
On the other hand I do not need to gather info on who is doing what, because the Internet gives me a very good idea of what people are not doing and this is where my work is getting at.

All I am trying to do is establish a dialog and learn of what my potential customers want as I realise far too well that my personal ideas regarding metal detecting ( I am a treasure hunter my self) do not resonate in the same way with other people.



Thanks for your honesty.
Thinking outside the square is a good thing, The QED was born by outside the square thinking from Howard. Other members alike, Tinkerer,Ibgold,Aziz, I could list many, so you are not alone on this forum, hell, I get paid to think outside the square.
As to one man band metal detectors the QED is manufactured by one man and through a lot of hot water and trolls doing their best to ridicule and prevent it coming to market.
We have pretty much seen and heard it all on this forum over the years, so when someone starts dancing around questions and making statements a troll is suspected immediately.
Some of us are engineers,some are not so technical but most of us have prospecting at heart, as a hobby, as an income, as an interest . Collective knowledge is high, sharing information, well that is up to individual members how much, no one is going to share prospective commercial information anymore, why would, or should they, trolls have stifled so many good forums, it's become a joke, so people take conversations off line...and forums suffer
If you have a product to sell, tell us all about it, start a new thread and inform members, kick it off from there...oh and read plenty of Ml pâtents if you want to sell product here in Oz...

Cheers

Muntari


Thanks Muntari.
I surely didn't mean to troll anyone.
As for ML patents I honestly don't have the patience to read trough out all of them. And to put it in different perspective I just have somewhat very unorthodox approach to solving the various detecting problems.

But look at the video below. I made this video before I released the Nexus MP model. Now many have argued the setting were not right, which is the most common troll bs if anyone would like to downgrade a claim.
The way I outgunned the most advanced IB detector was by a super stable oscillator and a variable damping resistor over the RX. For extreme cases the damping was as high as 1.5 Ohms across the RX. The current Nexus MP is superior to the prototype on the video.

  

On this test the ML was set on the sensitivity levels recommended by the units processor as I know that higher sensitivity settings would likely lead to detecting nothing, because of internal overload.
The ground is highly magnetic and well loaded with all sorts of mineralisation.

I was actually kind to the CTX not showing the full extend of the differences between the CTX and the MP prototype.



Hi Dontbsme, it's all good, best thing to do is get a system down to Oz for testing, if it's any good on the goldfields here, you will sell the product. 
I know you have said you are not into reading ml pâtents but my advice is to read related ones and make sure you are in the clear. It would be a real shame fir you to go try sell here only to be sent a cease and desist notice. ML tend to vigously defend their IP patch

Cheers

Muntari
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Dontbstme
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« Reply #21 on: Saturday January 26 2019 21:26:07 AEDT PM »

  


For ultimate depth on larger object then the only way to go with large coils is to use a ground loop setup.
doug smile
We'll see about that.   happy face
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Dontbstme
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« Reply #22 on: Saturday January 26 2019 21:38:32 AEDT PM »

  

Hi Dontbsme, it's all good, best thing to do is get a system down to Oz for testing, if it's any good on the goldfields here, you will sell the product. 
I know you have said you are not into reading ml pâtents but my advice is to read related ones and make sure you are in the clear. It would be a real shame fir you to go try sell here only to be sent a cease and desist notice. ML tend to vigously defend their IP patch

Cheers

Muntari

I understand your point, but my designs have nothing in common with ML patents. Nexus is based on a circuitry invented long before ML became a detector manufacturer. I use a simple two channel IB schematic and a lot of experience in tuning coils and circuits.
You see many years ago I said in the Geotech forum that everything in a metal detector begins and ends with the search coil (nobody believed me back then). Almost my entire development is search coils. The electronics of Nexus can be qualified as common as you can get it out there short of the MP which does have one special trick conjured up by me.

Besides I can barely manufacture 50 or so units per year. I don't think ML will get startled by that.

I obviously do not know much about the EMI regulations in Australia, but over the years I did sell at least 15 or so detectors to customers from your country and so far no one got back to me with troublesome news.
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Doug
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« Reply #23 on: Saturday January 26 2019 22:34:38 AEDT PM »

  
  


For ultimate depth on larger object then the only way to go with large coils is to use a ground loop setup.
doug smile
We'll see about that.   happy face

A ground loop  is the only way that you can defeat the 1/R^6  which is why in the UXO detection area  that the deepest  detectors are all ground loops  or very large (many meters in size) Tx coils and are  TD rather than FD. The problem with all FD detectors over Australian soils is the HUGE variation the in X/R which laterally can vary from say .2/1 to as much as 10/1!!! Many of our worst soils   also have VRM maghemite  as well as magnetite.
doug smile
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Muntari
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« Reply #24 on: Sunday January 27 2019 01:29:44 AEDT AM »

  
  

Hi Dontbsme, it's all good, best thing to do is get a system down to Oz for testing, if it's any good on the goldfields here, you will sell the product. 
I know you have said you are not into reading ml pâtents but my advice is to read related ones and make sure you are in the clear. It would be a real shame fir you to go try sell here only to be sent a cease and desist notice. ML tend to vigously defend their IP patch

Cheers

Muntari

I understand your point, but my designs have nothing in common with ML patents. Nexus is based on a circuitry invented long before ML became a detector manufacturer. I use a simple two channel IB schematic and a lot of experience in tuning coils and circuits.
You see many years ago I said in the Geotech forum that everything in a metal detector begins and ends with the search coil (nobody believed me back then). Almost my entire development is search coils. The electronics of Nexus can be qualified as common as you can get it out there short of the MP which does have one special trick conjured up by me.

Besides I can barely manufacture 50 or so units per year. I don't think ML will get startled by that.

I obviously do not know much about the EMI regulations in Australia, but over the years I did sell at least 15 or so detectors to customers from your country and so far no one got back to me with troublesome news.

EMI regulations are not difficult to work through here in Australia, that would be the least of your problems...
Umm .. I wouldn't count on ML not doing anything...numbers will have nothing to do with it trust me...
At the end of the day, it's your business and your call.....just cover your a..s is all I'm sayin lol

I have spent at least 20 years with R&D on UxO detection methods including multi array coil systems and picked up quite a few tricks relating to coils and front ends all PI related. It us very demanding on both machine and user....Prospecting for gold is very demanding on a machine. Not so much on user..and I would agree, coils  play a huge role in both...and what we think we know just about all there is to building coils and electronics...sometimes gets turned on its head.
We are told an ultrafast coil is required to detect small tc targets. So we design coils for Pi machines with 300 uh use Litz wire, flat winds, baskets etc.....then Vallon comes along and produces a machine with a coil around 1200uH... And yet it can detect a SS firing pin in mineralised soils at good depth....so my point is...it's not always about a particular part of a system...it's about the whole system...and what it needs to achieve...
Ground balance and junk targets  was and still is a big problem and only becomes bigger when the coils go up in size, stability of build and stability of movement, heavy mineral clays, hot rocks, you name it, it all has to be dealt with and doing it in Australian goldfields has its quirks.
Do you have someone here in Oz to test your machines?

Cheers

Muntari
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Dontbstme
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« Reply #25 on: Sunday January 27 2019 01:34:03 AEDT AM »

  
  
  


For ultimate depth on larger object then the only way to go with large coils is to use a ground loop setup.
doug smile
We'll see about that.   happy face

A ground loop  is the only way that you can defeat the 1/R^6  which is why in the UXO detection area  that the deepest  detectors are all ground loops  or very large (many meters in size) Tx coils and are  TD rather than FD. The problem with all FD detectors over Australian soils is the HUGE variation the in X/R which laterally can vary from say .2/1 to as much as 10/1!!! Many of our worst soils   also have VRM maghemite  as well as magnetite.
doug smile
I am, also for the big coil systems, but there is another way that renders ground loops an over kill. I have this means incorporated in the Nexus MP.
We have the same nightmare soils here in Bulgaria too and I have been many times over there for extensive tests.
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Dontbstme
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« Reply #26 on: Sunday January 27 2019 01:50:51 AEDT AM »

  
EMI regulations are not difficult to work through here in Australia, that would be the least of your problems...
Umm .. I wouldn't count on ML not doing anything...numbers will have nothing to do with it trust me...
At the end of the day, it's your business and your call.....just cover your a..s is all I'm sayin lol

I have spent at least 20 years with R&D on UxO detection methods including multi array coil systems and picked up quite a few tricks relating to coils and front ends all PI related. It us very demanding on both machine and user....Prospecting for gold is very demanding on a machine. Not so much on user..and I would agree, coils  play a huge role in both...and what we think we know just about all there is to building coils and electronics...sometimes gets turned on its head.
We are told an ultrafast coil is required to detect small tc targets. So we design coils for Pi machines with 300 uh use Litz wire, flat winds, baskets etc.....then Vallon comes along and produces a machine with a coil around 1200uH... And yet it can detect a SS firing pin in mineralised soils at good depth....so my point is...it's not always about a particular part of a system...it's about the whole system...and what it needs to achieve...
Ground balance and junk targets  was and still is a big problem and only becomes bigger when the coils go up in size, stability of build and stability of movement, heavy mineral clays, hot rocks, you name it, it all has to be dealt with and doing it in Australian goldfields has its quirks.
Do you have someone here in Oz to test your machines?

Cheers

Muntari

I have no test man in Oz, but in all honesty would prefer to get my arse in there and see for my self.
For the beginning I would like to have some rock/soil samples for your worse nightmare. This will enable me to run some comparative measurements.
I'll pay the shipping what ever it is.
Who is up for wrapping up a box with Oz nightmares?
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dasenator777
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« Reply #27 on: Sunday January 27 2019 09:21:55 AEDT AM »

private message me your details i have plenty samples here you can have, will send them over to you cash on delivery would be best bet just pay shipping at your end, how many kgs do you want  good luck
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« Reply #28 on: Sunday January 27 2019 10:28:58 AEDT AM »

 It does seem that Bulgaria has some soil types that may have some similarities  to our GF types.
Rock magnetic properties of recent soils from northeastern Bulgaria
SUMMARY
In this paper, basic rock magnetic studies of Holocene loess-soil samples from northeastern Bulgaria are reported. The sites are related to the Danube river and
located at different distances southwards, thus representing various pedogenic conditions.The study is primarily aimed at determining the main magnetic carrier@) and their physical characteristics (grain-size distribution, magnetic enhancement, etc.).Oxyhydroxides, maghemite and titanomagnetites of various oxidation degrees are assumed to be the main ferromagnetic minerals present. Our results suggest that the uppermost part of recent soil profiles is rich in stable, near-single-domain (SD) particles,while the illuvial horizons are characterized by a gradual decrease in grain sizes, from highly viscous to a true superparamagnetic (SP) domain state. The properties of samples from carbonate-rich horizons of recent soils are basically controlled by detrital minerals, while those from sites with more intensive pedogenesis and especially grey forest soils are influenced by strongly magnetic minerals formed 'in situ '
  

  
doug smile
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« Reply #29 on: Sunday January 27 2019 10:41:07 AEDT AM »

  
  
EMI regulations are not difficult to work through here in Australia, that would be the least of your problems...
Umm .. I wouldn't count on ML not doing anything...numbers will have nothing to do with it trust me...
At the end of the day, it's your business and your call.....just cover your a..s is all I'm sayin lol

I have spent at least 20 years with R&D on UxO detection methods including multi array coil systems and picked up quite a few tricks relating to coils and front ends all PI related. It us very demanding on both machine and user....Prospecting for gold is very demanding on a machine. Not so much on user..and I would agree, coils  play a huge role in both...and what we think we know just about all there is to building coils and electronics...sometimes gets turned on its head.
We are told an ultrafast coil is required to detect small tc targets. So we design coils for Pi machines with 300 uh use Litz wire, flat winds, baskets etc.....then Vallon comes along and produces a machine with a coil around 1200uH... And yet it can detect a SS firing pin in mineralised soils at good depth....so my point is...it's not always about a particular part of a system...it's about the whole system...and what it needs to achieve...
Ground balance and junk targets  was and still is a big problem and only becomes bigger when the coils go up in size, stability of build and stability of movement, heavy mineral clays, hot rocks, you name it, it all has to be dealt with and doing it in Australian goldfields has its quirks.
Do you have someone here in Oz to test your machines?

Cheers

Muntari

I have no test man in Oz, but in all honesty would prefer to get my arse in there and see for my self.
For the beginning I would like to have some rock/soil samples for your worse nightmare. This will enable me to run some comparative measurements.
I'll pay the shipping what ever it is.
Who is up for wrapping up a box with Oz nightmares?

With respect a few rock samples from OZ GF are NOT going to tell you if the nexus will work over here. you need to be here yourself or send a nexus over here to be  tested in the GF of Victoria and particularly WA which is geologically one of the oldest terrains in the world and contains soil profiles which you wont have in Bulgaria like laterites  and banded ironstones.
doug smile
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Dontbstme
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« Reply #30 on: Sunday January 27 2019 16:05:14 AEDT PM »

  
It does seem that Bulgaria has some soil types that may have some similarities  to our GF types.
Rock magnetic properties of recent soils from northeastern Bulgaria
SUMMARY
In this paper, basic rock magnetic studies of Holocene loess-soil samples from northeastern Bulgaria are reported. The sites are related to the Danube river and
located at different distances southwards, thus representing various pedogenic conditions.The study is primarily aimed at determining the main magnetic carrier@) and their physical characteristics (grain-size distribution, magnetic enhancement, etc.).Oxyhydroxides, maghemite and titanomagnetites of various oxidation degrees are assumed to be the main ferromagnetic minerals present. Our results suggest that the uppermost part of recent soil profiles is rich in stable, near-single-domain (SD) particles,while the illuvial horizons are characterized by a gradual decrease in grain sizes, from highly viscous to a true superparamagnetic (SP) domain state. The properties of samples from carbonate-rich horizons of recent soils are basically controlled by detrital minerals, while those from sites with more intensive pedogenesis and especially grey forest soils are influenced by strongly magnetic minerals formed 'in situ '
  

  
doug smile


North- East Bulgarian soils are a joke. There are only here and there some individual hills, probably remnants of small volcanos or God knows what, but nothing challenging for detection. The real big deal in Bulgaria is in the South, Rodopi and Sakar mountains. There are sites there that the GPX can not balance. I'll see if I can get on one of those to make some videos.
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Dontbstme
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« Reply #31 on: Sunday January 27 2019 16:15:27 AEDT PM »

  


With respect a few rock samples from OZ GF are NOT going to tell you if the nexus will work over here. you need to be here yourself or send a nexus over here to be  tested in the GF of Victoria and particularly WA which is geologically one of the oldest terrains in the world and contains soil profiles which you wont have in Bulgaria like laterites  and banded ironstones.
doug smile

Yes Doug. They most definitely will tell me almost everything I need to know. I will run a laboratory analysis (if necessary) and compare properties to samples from our worse sites. My comparative methods have never let me down.
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« Reply #32 on: Sunday January 27 2019 16:21:33 AEDT PM »

  
private message me your details i have plenty samples here you can have, will send them over to you cash on delivery would be best bet just pay shipping at your end, how many kgs do you want  good luck

I don't have access to the private messaging for some reason. I can send my details here, no problems with that. Will need to see some pics of your samples and possibly demo with reaction to magnets and how they interfere with other IB or PI detectors.

Cash on delivery from Australia to Bulgaria will prove difficult.
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« Reply #33 on: Sunday January 27 2019 16:34:39 AEDT PM »

  
There are sites there that the GPX can not balance.

Was this on all timings on the GPX with a mono ?eg what happens with the smooth timings? Would the gpx Gb on any timings with a DD?
Its worth noting  that the GPX over some highly magnetic, mineralized ground cannot GB right to soil  level  something the QED can do!!!
doug smile
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« Reply #34 on: Sunday January 27 2019 16:36:26 AEDT PM »

  
I don't have access to the private messaging for some reason.
I don't know why this is but could be browser related? I will look into it.
doug smile
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« Reply #35 on: Sunday January 27 2019 17:12:28 AEDT PM »

Hi Dontbstme,

I can supply you with a sample of ground that  some of the QED testing was done on and that I supplied to Bugwhisker's for his testing Purposes.

I have built PI Mono's up to 1800 mm diameter and agree the biggest challenge here is obtaining quality Litz wire of the required strand size and strand numbers I have been through building my own wire but now it has become impractical and at 72 are tapering off building and hoping to spend more time out prospecting.

Regards, Ian. happy face
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Dontbstme
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« Reply #36 on: Sunday January 27 2019 17:21:48 AEDT PM »

  
  
There are sites there that the GPX can not balance.

Was this on all timings on the GPX with a mono ?eg what happens with the smooth timings? Would the gpx Gb on any timings with a DD?
Its worth noting  that the GPX over some highly magnetic, mineralized ground cannot GB right to soil  level  something the QED can do!!!
doug smile

We have some few sites covered with hematite stones that exhibit multipole magnetic properties. If you balance the rock on one side it beeps on the other. GPX failed every time to balance those out. Some manual GB PI have managed to over come this, but only in the hands of a very experienced users.
I have 2 kg of these stones and will test the GPX4500 next week.

For the record the biggest gold mine in Europe is in central Bulgaria and it is not on quartz deposits. I believe you get what I'm saying.
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« Reply #37 on: Sunday January 27 2019 17:31:53 AEDT PM »

  
Hi Dontbstme,

I can supply you with a sample of ground that  some of the QED testing was done on and that I supplied to Bugwhisker's for his testing Purposes.

I have built PI Mono's up to 1800 mm diameter and agree the biggest challenge here is obtaining quality Litz wire of the required strand size and strand numbers I have been through building my own wire but now it has become impractical and at 72 are tapering off building and hoping to spend more time out prospecting.

Regards, Ian. happy face
Thank you for the offer IBGold.
From my experience loose soil samples do not load test detectors as rock samples do. So if it possible I would like to have a big rock from that site where the QED was tested.
If you believe however that loose soil will be challenging enough I'll take your word for it.

Can you give me some examples of weight for your huge mono coils? Just curious.
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« Reply #38 on: Sunday January 27 2019 17:40:49 AEDT PM »

The image below is a Hot Rock being suspended by the edge of a square Super Magnet.

It serves to demonstrate just how much Iron can be in rocks in the Victorian goldfields.


* IMG_20190127_173413_057.jpg (41.7 KB, 469x528 - viewed 60 times.)
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« Reply #39 on: Sunday January 27 2019 18:08:33 AEDT PM »

  
The image below is a Hot Rock being suspended by the edge of a square Super Magnet.

It serves to demonstrate just how much Iron can be in rocks in the Victorian goldfields.
Nice. Hand it over... happy face
Do you have a big one, let say 4-5 kg or so?

Also is the soil littered with small particles of these rocks or are the rocks rather contained and the soil less Iron loaded?

I am asking because on one of our mineral test sites in BG the rocks represent very well the real conditions with the exception of conductivity. The rocks are not conductive, but the soil is on top of been loaded with millions of nasty magnetic rocks. So after it rains is the big fun. smile
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