northwest The need for big deep gold detectors.
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australian electronic gold prospecting forum.com  |  Detector Technology and Electronics and new detectors  |  Detector Coils (Moderator: Goldman)  |  Topic: The need for big deep gold detectors. 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: The need for big deep gold detectors.  (Read 28551 times)
WM6
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« Reply #120 on: Sunday December 17 2017 07:57:12 AEDT AM »

Hi Aziz

What proportion of TX/RX coil diameter you suggest for starting tests?
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Aziz
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« Reply #121 on: Sunday December 17 2017 10:56:34 AEDT AM »

  
Hi Aziz

What proportion of TX/RX coil diameter you suggest for starting tests?

Hi WM6,

this is dependent on the gain margin (max. sensitivity setting) of the detector and the grade of mineralization of the ground you want to operate.
RX/TX diameter relation between 0.7 to 0.4. The smaller the RX, the more gain is required. We are limitted to the maximum gain setting of the detector.

--------

BTW guys,

the custom TX/RX coil should work on the QED, SD/GP/GPX detectors, when we strictly meet the coil specifications tightly to
TX: 300 µH, 0.4 Ohm
RX: 300 µH, 0.4 Ohm

The RX coil could also have more inductance but it's resistance should always be 0.4 Ohms. Basket weave winding technique should keep the coil capacitance low but the wire thickness will make the coils more heavy.

We are just simulating a mono coil, putting damping resistors on the RX coil side but wiring the coil plug to be a DD coil. The detector (SD/GP/GPX) must be configured as a mono coil operation. No switch in the coil adapter box required then. Only the damping resitors for the RX coil.

This should work with less problems in the first instance.

Cheers,
Aziz
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IBGold
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« Reply #122 on: Sunday December 17 2017 16:19:26 AEDT PM »

Hi Aziz info as requested,

                                                                               Coil Parameters.  

                                                                                          12"Evolution coil.          14 x 9 elliptical Evo. coil.       18" Elite coil.

TX Inductance pins 4-5.                                                                326 uh.                           314 uh.                         296 uh.

TX Resistance in Ohms. pins 4-5                                                     0.4.                                   0.4.                             0.45.  

RX Inductance pins 1-2                                                                326 uh.                            314 uh.                           296 uh.

RX resistance in Ohms pins 1-2                                                       0.4.                                   0.4.                             0.45.

Inductance pins 2-4                                                                       ----                                    ---                                ---

Resistance pins 2-4                                                                         0.                                       0.                                 0.

S.R.F                                                                                           510.05 KHz                      511.23 KHz                      517.02 KHz
    
Winding.                                                                All Spiral Flat Wound MONO Coils with pins 2-3-4 Bridged in coil plug.      


Regards, Ian.  

                        
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Regards, Ian.
Aziz
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« Reply #123 on: Sunday December 17 2017 20:32:55 AEDT PM »

Hi Ian,

thank you very much for the infos, you have nicely presented here.

Nobody has obviously used the separate TX/RX coil design in the new coils yet.
happy face

Cheers,
Aziz
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authere
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« Reply #124 on: Sunday December 17 2017 22:38:01 AEDT PM »

Hi Aziz,

Just like I said

Cheers,Ron
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Aziz
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« Reply #125 on: Monday December 18 2017 04:07:55 AEDT AM »

  
Hi Aziz,

Just like I said

Cheers,Ron

Hi Ron,

this is not the point. We see the exact coil data and their variation now. 
I always want exact data. smile
Cheers,
Aziz

PS:
Be prepared for giving me the coil wire specifications for the custom made TX/RX coil, when we are going to design a coil.
Total wire diameter in mm (core + insulation)
Core wire diameter in mm (copper)
Wire resistance in Ohm/km (or Ohm/m)
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Muntari
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« Reply #126 on: Monday December 18 2017 16:28:47 AEDT PM »

Hi Aziz,

Its a pity you weren't back online a few months ago, I threw all my MPI project gear away, would have been perfect for you coil project.....
see "blast from the past " post from me ...

Cheers

muntari
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Aziz
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« Reply #127 on: Monday December 18 2017 19:44:00 AEDT PM »

  
Hi Aziz,

Its a pity you weren't back online a few months ago, I threw all my MPI project gear away, would have been perfect for you coil project.....
see "blast from the past " post from me ...

Cheers

muntari

Hi Muntari,

that's really a pitty. Maybe its time for a new and better one?
I recommend a very KISS version.

Aziz
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« Reply #128 on: Monday December 18 2017 19:52:55 AEDT PM »

Hi guys,

what a fu... mess? scared
My PC water cooling system failed yesterday. The iron cool water tank (approx. 15 liter) corroded and got a hole and all the water drained down from the desk to the ground. Fortunatelly, nothing except the water tank has been damaged so far.

It well might delay this project few days. I have to clean the mess.
Aziz
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« Reply #129 on: Monday December 18 2017 21:19:18 AEDT PM »

Hi all,

I have to calculate the estimated ground response relation of TX/RX for all coil models yet. I'll take a coil height of approx. 1 inch (coil windings to hot ground level). The heigher the coil above the ground, the more erroneous will be the calculated ground response however. But it gives a good estimation in the first instance.

Purpose:
For the comparison of the coils. For instance a comparison between a pure mono coil and a TX/RX coil with same size. Smaller RX coil will pick up less ground noise of course. So we can increase the RX gain to the same level of the ground noise response of the equivalent sized mono coil. Then we can directly compare the detection depth and whether there is an advantage.

How I do this:
By the relation of magnetic flux at the ground level seen by the TX and RX coil. The magnetic flux is direct proportional to the magnetization of the ground layer and therefore to the ground noise response. We don't have to calculate the absolute ground noise reponses (really not a trivial task) and the relation is good enough for this purpose.

see   

This will also take some calculation time.
A real ground response relation measurement would be fine of course as it would deliver the correct relation factors. We can make these measurements later if really needed.

Cheers,
Aziz
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« Reply #130 on: Monday December 18 2017 22:23:01 AEDT PM »

most of the time I drag my coils on the ground
you were lucky with your tank  leak.
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« Reply #131 on: Monday December 18 2017 22:29:37 AEDT PM »

Hi all,

some comments about what I have found the last days reading the gold prospecting forums.

Most of the (GPX) users have to damp the RX gain down to 7 in extreme hot ground conditions in conjunction with relative large mono coils. With the new TX/RX coils, you don't have to reduce the RX gain anymore. You rise it up to the appropriate working ground conditions. So we would have enough RX gain margin (upto 20 RX gain) for this TX/RX coil to compensate the losses and to get to the very comfort region of depth increase advantage.

Now imagine the effects:
All your old SD/GP/GPX detectors are becoming a GPZ-Killer on very hot ground conditions, where usually gold is being found!

Provided, that the black box (SD/GP/GPX detector) runs with the new coils of course.
The QED will run. No doubt.

Cheers,
Aziz
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« Reply #132 on: Monday December 18 2017 22:34:44 AEDT PM »

  
you were lucky with your tank  leak.

Indeed, I was very very lucky.
I have taken a new plastic bucket containing cooling water (10 l). This solution shouldn't delay this project in the first instance.
Aziz
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« Reply #133 on: Monday December 18 2017 23:17:54 AEDT PM »

Hi Aziz,

If I run cooling water into my computer it would let the smoke out scared, you must have a wangdoozie of a computer, are you still using valves good luck

Ron
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« Reply #134 on: Monday December 18 2017 23:30:53 AEDT PM »

  
Hi Aziz,

If I run cooling water into my computer it would let the smoke out scared, you must have a wangdoozie of a computer, are you still using valves good luck

Ron

Hi Ron,

I have built a special CPU water cooling system with a large cooling water tank, which was placed outside of the computer on a desk. It is a passive cooling system and I don't need a radiator. Only the iron water tank has been corroded and got a leak hole. No water came into the computer or main board.
I'm using the heated water tank as a heater during the night. No energy will be wasted.
Aziz
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sd220d Digger
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« Reply #135 on: Tuesday December 19 2017 00:07:53 AEDT AM »

  
Hi all,

some comments about what I have found the last days reading the gold prospecting forums.

Most of the (GPX) users have to damp the RX gain down to 7 in extreme hot ground conditions in conjunction with relative large mono coils. With the new TX/RX coils, you don't have to reduce the RX gain anymore. You rise it up to the appropriate working ground conditions. So we would have enough RX gain margin (upto 20 RX gain) for this TX/RX coil to compensate the losses and to get to the very comfort region of depth increase advantage.

Now imagine the effects:
All your old SD/GP/GPX detectors are becoming a GPZ-Killer on very hot ground conditions, where usually gold is being found!

Provided, that the black box (SD/GP/GPX detector) runs with the new coils of course.
The QED will run. No doubt.

Cheers,
Aziz

Hi Aziz,
Sharp timing and sensitive extra timings on the gpx 5000 will punch deeper into the ground but the problem with these two timings is that it works on mild ground but most gold is trapped in hot mineralized ground.
I have used max RX (20) and max stabiliser (20) on my gpx 5000
But it takes great concentration as the noise is incredibly very noisy and very hard on the ears and head.
Your head starts spinning after a little while.  scared
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« Reply #136 on: Tuesday December 19 2017 00:39:16 AEDT AM »

  
Hi Aziz,
Sharp timing and sensitive extra timings on the gpx 5000 will punch deeper into the ground but the problem with these two timings is that it works on mild ground but most gold is trapped in hot mineralized ground.
I have used max RX (20) and max stabiliser (20) on my gpx 5000
But it takes great concentration as the noise is incredibly very noisy and very hard on the ears and head.
Your head starts spinning after a little while.  scared

Hi Digger,

all the issues will be improved with the new TX/RX coils.
And there will be no limit to the total coil size.

Aziz
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« Reply #137 on: Tuesday December 19 2017 05:50:07 AEDT AM »

Hi all.

The plot thickens. scared

You definitely won't be disappointed about the new concentric co-planar TX/RX coils.
happy face

I also want to make a horizontal coil sweep simulation comparison. Only for two coils to see the major benefit for locating the big deep gold on heavy mineralized ground.

Aziz
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sd220d Digger
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« Reply #138 on: Tuesday December 19 2017 09:50:12 AEDT AM »

  
  
Hi Aziz,
Sharp timing and sensitive extra timings on the gpx 5000 will punch deeper into the ground but the problem with these two timings is that it works on mild ground but most gold is trapped in hot mineralized ground.
I have used max RX (20) and max stabiliser (20) on my gpx 5000
But it takes great concentration as the noise is incredibly very noisy and very hard on the ears and head.
Your head starts spinning after a little while.  scared

Hi Digger,

all the issues will be improved with the new TX/RX coils.
And there will be no limit to the total coil size.

Aziz

Hi Aziz,
Who will you have making these coils for us? smile
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« Reply #139 on: Tuesday December 19 2017 09:56:31 AEDT AM »

Hi all,

I have a good name for the new coils.
Analogy:
We have got the Evolution coils.

This time the Revolution coils.

(It's a pefect name. It will revolutionise the gold detecting.)

Oh man!, can we get a RX gain margin in the region of +6 dB (2 times) to +10 dB (3 times) out of the detector setting?
That would be really perfect!
Well, if the amplifier noise is becoming critical or when there isn't enough RX gain headroom, then we have to increase the RX coil inductance a bit. Not too much as we don't want much more coil weight and RX coil capacitance.

An RX gain on the detector setting to dB table would be really fine. I could exactly say you, how the coils will perform.
I see a trial & error development coming up.

Anyway.
Aziz
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australian electronic gold prospecting forum.com  |  Detector Technology and Electronics and new detectors  |  Detector Coils (Moderator: Goldman)  |  Topic: The need for big deep gold detectors. « previous next »
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