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australian electronic gold prospecting forum.com  |  Detector Technology and Electronics and new detectors  |  Detector Coils (Moderator: Goldman)  |  Topic: The need for big deep gold detectors. 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: The need for big deep gold detectors.  (Read 30606 times)
Muntari
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« Reply #640 on: Saturday March 3 2018 00:41:57 AEDT AM »

  
  
Hi All,

Here is an overlay photo showing the proposed new position of TX RX windings.
You can compare to original

It falls within Aziz's design boundaries, maximizes the size of RX / TX loop radius and removes a lot of weight from the former.

I will machine one over the weekend and see how we go.

This will be after I assemble the shields to this first set of windings, then I'll post results.
I'm going to try Ian's method with using Sikabond foam glue as it sounds very good.

Cheers

Muntari

Hi Muntari,

the coil is looking very nice. Well done.
You can use super glue with XPS coil formers. But not much (less is more). Only a few lines of super glue will fix the windings and shielding spacers.

Cheers,
Aziz

Hi Aziz,

Thanks, getting there slowly.
Yes I did note where you used super glue with XPS might be useful to tack wires into place before encapsulating with the Sikabond Foam Fix Ian has been using.
Always good to have options.

Here is the latest former version to be cut from 3mm Foamed PVC.

This version which will be much less weight. I will post sizes tomorrow.

Will machine in the morning.

More later

Cheers

Muntari


* TX_RX 19 inch 3mm former.JPG (306.12 KB, 1255x1013 - viewed 261 times.)
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6666
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« Reply #641 on: Saturday March 3 2018 08:46:00 AEDT AM »

Quote
I was more thinking of laying it alongside the copper for ease of construction, its good to see how other folk think too.
My thinking was that it may be another option for the builders that don't want to go down the path I have taken.

Hi yes there has been some brief discussion about winding in parallel a flat coil with fishing line and wire, the problem is how to stick them to a backing board without the wire going rats nest, also another idea was winding figure 8 speaker wire, then removing one wire to leave the spacing between wires, that would be brilliant if we could get it to stick and work.. But the fishing line and wire in parallel would probably be easier to just glue and forget.   
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Muntari
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« Reply #642 on: Saturday March 3 2018 10:49:30 AEDT AM »

  
Quote
I was more thinking of laying it alongside the copper for ease of construction, its good to see how other folk think too.
My thinking was that it may be another option for the builders that don't want to go down the path I have taken.

Hi yes there has been some brief discussion about winding in parallel a flat coil with fishing line and wire, the problem is how to stick them to a backing board without the wire going rats nest, also another idea was winding figure 8 speaker wire, then removing one wire to leave the spacing between wires, that would be brilliant if we could get it to stick and work.. But the fishing line and wire in parallel would probably be easier to just glue and forget.  

Hi 6666,

Yes I was thinking of a very narrow bobbin type former just wide enough for the wire with slots cut on one face for glue or resin and feeding wire fishing line in via a guide very close to former edge.
Once wound, glue into place.
The XPS outer pieces would be 12mm thick the inner may even be thin cardboard to suit wire thickness.
You would maybe need a front and back support for the XPS while winding but I think you could just about get away without them, no big deal if they are needed though.
The advantage woul be a light weight coil and you could spray or paint shielding directly onto former

Thinking on it more, get a 25mm thick XPS sheet  cut to required diameter, put in onto a jig that turns, grab a fine blade saw and cut into centre of side to depth of inner most winding, put some slots on one face and there's your former
Once tested use some glue and Ian's Sikabond foam fix method to seal up slots and around side, then spray the whole assembly with your favourite shield material.

You then have a rigid, light weight winding. It is something that could be done quite easily I think.


Cheers

Muntari
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Golddiggerdave
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« Reply #643 on: Saturday March 3 2018 11:20:41 AEDT AM »

Possible Litz alternative - See:-

TinManPower - YouTube - Tesla BPC from copper ribbon winding jig
used copper foil to wind a coil - large surface area.

.....Dave
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6666
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« Reply #644 on: Saturday March 3 2018 11:32:36 AEDT AM »

A link would help that guy has tons of videos
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« Reply #645 on: Saturday March 3 2018 14:07:27 AEDT PM »

I have been following this thread and would love to be able to contribute. and because I am electronically challenged I havn't any technical knowledge to share.
BUT if this suggestion helps, then I can feel that I have contributed to something we can all benefit from. If it's a bad idea, File it. I'm still with you.

I've used Plastic plumbing adhesive on insulated speaker cable.
Also "UHU POR" glue is good on some polystyrene.

Great work fellas, I'm on your side. Looking forwad to making my own Super Coil.

Link:
   

Or Just Google:-
TinManPower - YouTube - Tesla BPC from copper ribbon winding

That video will be right in the top few.

......   Dave




 
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« Reply #646 on: Saturday March 3 2018 16:05:55 AEDT PM »

Hi Muntari and all,

Yes I have wound flat wound coils using this method about 5 years ago or more I used 15 mm Styrofoam and routed a 1.6 mm recess where the Litz wire and Fluorocarbon line went then painstakingly wound the wire and fluorocarbon line super gluing every 30 mm I then glued the other side on it was 13 mm thick overall width ended up 30 mm when bonded then painted the shielding directly onto the Styrofoam did not work bad at all I still have it in my armory.

Regards, Ian. happy face
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Muntari
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« Reply #647 on: Saturday March 3 2018 22:01:06 AEDT PM »

  
I have been following this thread and would love to be able to contribute. and because I am electronically challenged I havn't any technical knowledge to share.
BUT if this suggestion helps, then I can feel that I have contributed to something we can all benefit from. If it's a bad idea, File it. I'm still with you.

I've used Plastic plumbing adhesive on insulated speaker cable.
Also "UHU POR" glue is good on some polystyrene.

Great work fellas, I'm on your side. Looking forwad to making my own Super Coil.

Link:
   

Or Just Google:-
TinManPower - YouTube - Tesla BPC from copper ribbon winding

That video will be right in the top few.

......   Dave




 


Hi Dave,

Thanks for the input, every little idea helps so please keep contributing, you never know, that link may lead to another great idea. Digging around on the Internet and sharing possible alternatives is a good thing.
The copper foil in that width would probably have a lot of capacitance and may not be suitable fir a PI coil BUT. I have never tried it so perhaps it might happy face

We can add that to the list of possibles unless someone here has already tried it.

Cheers

Muntari
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Muntari
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« Reply #648 on: Saturday March 3 2018 22:12:58 AEDT PM »

  
Hi Muntari and all,

Yes I have wound flat wound coils using this method about 5 years ago or more I used 15 mm Styrofoam and routed a 1.6 mm recess where the Litz wire and Fluorocarbon line went then painstakingly wound the wire and fluorocarbon line super gluing every 30 mm I then glued the other side on it was 13 mm thick overall width ended up 30 mm when bonded then painted the shielding directly onto the Styrofoam did not work bad at all I still have it in my armory.

Regards, Ian. happy face

Hi Ian,

Thanks for sharing, Funny, I thought you may have tried it happy face
So it sounds like a very viable alternative for those who would like to experiment I think.
It would be interesting to see what the inductance and Cp is on that coil at some stage.
I think it's great to have different options to achieve the same goals.

Cheers

Muntari
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« Reply #649 on: Sunday March 4 2018 00:55:17 AEDT AM »

Hi All,

So for the fishing line spacer+wire XPS former I was thinking along this path.

As Ian has already given information on his coil at 30mm thick I went with that to start with

30mm thick XPS, 2mm groove as deep as required  and slots on one face as required

Ill try one at some stage but maybe someone else might like to give it a try, I already have plenty to do  happy face

More later


Cheers

Muntari


* xps spiral former.jpg (60.01 KB, 1649x997 - viewed 212 times.)
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« Reply #650 on: Monday March 5 2018 10:39:00 AEDT AM »

Hi All,

I will be increasing the TX wire diam to 1mm and dropping from 20 to 18 turns to reduce the resistance from the current value of 1.5 Ohms.
Then I'll check the SRF and Cp again
The RX will remain the same 44 turns 0.38mm  5.7 Ohms.

Was hoping to cut the latest foamed PVC (3mm thick version) of the former and finish off the test coil over weekend but didn't happen, between family commitments and getting side tracked cleaning out my workshop, time was gone. Next time family or friends ask if they can store gear for "a few weeks" I know what my answer will be  Hell no!
It gets to a point where there isn't enough room to operate the machinery safely but people just see floor space and think there's plenty of room. Those of you with adult kids will know where I'm coming from happy face

Cheers

Muntari



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IBGold
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« Reply #651 on: Monday March 5 2018 16:25:22 AEDT PM »

Hi Muntari,

Your 1 mm wire will carry eddy currents hence the need for Litz wire the Litz I will be using for my TX coil has an OD around 1.6 mm and I have ordered the appropriate end mills I am all set up waiting for the wire and end mills to arrive I also took a leaf from your book and made a cutter to put the grooves for the RX coil it is a 6 mm rod cut down so a hacksaw blade fits in with a hole for a 3 mm bolt which holds the blade tight the blade is about 12 mm out of the rod and is shaped as a cutter it is held in the router depth of cut set and the formed manually rotated while cutting the groove the way it is set up it tracks and works fine  so now waiting for wire.

Regards, Ian. happy face
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Muntari
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« Reply #652 on: Monday March 5 2018 17:07:27 AEDT PM »

  
Hi Muntari,

Your 1 mm wire will carry eddy currents hence the need for Litz wire the Litz I will be using for my TX coil has an OD around 1.6 mm and I have ordered the appropriate end mills I am all set up waiting for the wire and end mills to arrive I also took a leaf from your book and made a cutter to put the grooves for the RX coil it is a 6 mm rod cut down so a hacksaw blade fits in with a hole for a 3 mm bolt which holds the blade tight the blade is about 12 mm out of the rod and is shaped as a cutter it is held in the router depth of cut set and the formed manually rotated while cutting the groove the way it is set up it tracks and works fine  so now waiting for wire.

Regards, Ian. happy face

Hi Ian,

Yeah, I was concerned about that 1mm but want to compare against a number of different gauges for TX.
I am trying to steer clear of Litz but if I need to, then I'll go that way.

Great work, glad you got a tool set up for groove cutting, as long as it drags slightly (off center) it will cut fine.
Are you using XPS ?

Cheers

Muntari
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Muntari
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« Reply #653 on: Monday March 5 2018 18:43:21 AEDT PM »

  
  
Hi Muntari,

Your 1 mm wire will carry eddy currents hence the need for Litz wire the Litz I will be using for my TX coil has an OD around 1.6 mm and I have ordered the appropriate end mills I am all set up waiting for the wire and end mills to arrive I also took a leaf from your book and made a cutter to put the grooves for the RX coil it is a 6 mm rod cut down so a hacksaw blade fits in with a hole for a 3 mm bolt which holds the blade tight the blade is about 12 mm out of the rod and is shaped as a cutter it is held in the router depth of cut set and the formed manually rotated while cutting the groove the way it is set up it tracks and works fine  so now waiting for wire.

Regards, Ian. happy face

Hi Ian,

Yeah, I was concerned about that 1mm but want to compare against a number of different gauges for TX.
I am trying to steer clear of Litz but if I need to, then I'll go that way.

Great work, glad you got a tool set up for groove cutting, as long as it drags slightly (off center) it will cut fine.
Are you using XPS ?

Cheers

Muntari


Hi Ian, forgot to say, I made a hot wire foam cutter to slice one of the Bunnings 30mm thick XPS sheets as I still haven't got down to IKEA yet, when I do I'll stock up..

The foam cutter was made out of  a guitar "E" string , some aluminium and a couple of ceramic insulators.
The power supply is an old car battery and I made up a PWM circuit to adjust temperature.
I attach it underneath the Cnc X axis , place the XPS on the Y axis moving bed and feed it through the cutter. Will take photos next time I use it, works a treat. happy face
I'll try to cut a former for you too btw


Cheers

Muntari
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Aziz
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« Reply #654 on: Tuesday March 6 2018 00:08:02 AEDT AM »

Hi all,

oh well, the capacitance meter of my digital multi meter (DMM) isn't quite accurate.  scared
The calibration of my sound card LCR meter is somewhat complicated and quite time consuming.
I can calibrate it to 1%/sqrt(10) = 0.32 % accuracy (10 parallel connected 1% resistors to determine the resistor value of my reference resistors).
I can live with that in the meaning time but I want to buy a resonable LCR meter soon.  excited

In the meaning time:
The most important benefit of my sound card LCR meter is the extreme sensitivity to stray capacitance measurements.
So I can check the efficiency of different coil shielding types.
And I can investigate the interwire coil capacitance and how to reduce it.

It's going to be an interesting stuff..
Cheers,
Aziz
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Muntari
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« Reply #655 on: Tuesday March 6 2018 13:36:03 AEDT PM »

  

In the meaning time:
The most important benefit of my sound card LCR meter is the extreme sensitivity to stray capacitance measurements.
So I can check the efficiency of different coil shielding types.
And I can investigate the interwire coil capacitance and how to reduce it.

It's going to be an interesting stuff..
Cheers,
Aziz

Hi Aziz,

Sounds good
Look forward to your findings with the different shielding methods, I'm sure you will come up with a novel approach, keep up the great work!

Cheers

Muntari
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« Reply #656 on: Tuesday March 6 2018 16:23:54 AEDT PM »

Hi Muntari,

Yes the cutter is off center and yes I am using XPS 2 pieces of the IKEA stuff bonded together I spray my cutters router bits and end mills with Teflon spray it stops pick up with that on the blade it cuts with no tearing of the XPS I have done about 1/4 of a new RX spider coil both sides I am running the wires at 2.5 mm centers with no damage so far the beauty of being able to make your own tools.

Aziz, have you had any more thoughts on how we are going to run these coils on the QED Dave did give a hint on how it might be done in his post earlier.

Regards, Ian.
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« Reply #657 on: Tuesday March 6 2018 21:36:07 AEDT PM »

  
..Aziz, have you had any more thoughts on how we are going to run these coils on the QED Dave did give a hint on how it might be done in his post earlier.

Regards, Ian.

Hi Ian,

it is easier to test the coils on ML detectors first.

I hadn't time to look for a good solution for the QED detector.
We just have to cancel the bias current in the (RX) coil caused by the diode overvoltage protection circuit. This bias current is causing a voltage drop and it will be amplified by the front-end amplifier.
It is quite trivial to solve the issue however.
Cheers,
Aziz
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Muntari
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« Reply #658 on: Wednesday March 7 2018 00:12:42 AEDT AM »

  
Hi Muntari,

Yes the cutter is off center and yes I am using XPS 2 pieces of the IKEA stuff bonded together I spray my cutters router bits and end mills with Teflon spray it stops pick up with that on the blade it cuts with no tearing of the XPS I have done about 1/4 of a new RX spider coil both sides I am running the wires at 2.5 mm centers with no damage so far the beauty of being able to make your own tools.

Aziz, have you had any more thoughts on how we are going to run these coils on the QED Dave did give a hint on how it might be done in his post earlier.

Regards, Ian.

Hi Ian,
That's great news, excellent work, I agree, being able to make your own tools with what you have available or can get readily is such a bonus. It allows one to do things that would otherwise cost a fortune. I have seen so many great ideas from DIY people, some simple some very involved but all doing the job they were intended to do, good ideas don't have to look fancy.

I've been side tracked on a couple of fronts,  replacing the Y axis servo end ballscrew bearing ( part should arrive in a day or so, it's 50mm screw so was expensive should be good for another 10 years then ) my new vacuum former project  ( old one can only do coils up to 350mm) and modification to the CNC hot wire foam cutter attachment.
The latter is almost completed and it will allow easy install / removal of the hot wire bow.
Just have to source a good 10 mm x compression Spring, there a few in the workshop..somewhere  happy face
Should have it up and running again tomorrow night.
The vacuum former will take a week or so and I'll work on that while the CNC is running off a few coil formers .

I am also interested in the adapting the coils to the QED. I have my old faithful GP 3000 so can start with that but the QED is the one I'm most interested in using.

More later

Cheers

Muntari



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« Reply #659 on: Wednesday March 7 2018 16:38:36 AEDT PM »

Hi Muntari,

The RX former is ready for wire that may take a few weeks to get here the XPS from IKEA comes in a pack the sheets are 790 mm x 590 mm 5 mm thick 13 sheets to a pack about $30 per pack part number 803.215.87 give the cashier the number and they will tell you where to pick them up I will be away for a few days cheers.

Regards, Ian. happy face
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