northwest The latest stab in the dark by the patent parrot!
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australian electronic gold prospecting forum.com  |  Common interest forum.  |  General chat and discussion forum (Moderator: bugwhiskers)  |  Topic: The latest stab in the dark by the patent parrot! 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: The latest stab in the dark by the patent parrot!  (Read 5422 times)
Aziz
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« Reply #40 on: Thursday May 1 2014 20:15:27 AEST PM »

  
Hey Aziz where can I get some of what you are on?

Do you mean the infamous "blue pills"(c)(r)(tm)? *LOL*
^
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Bill056
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« Reply #41 on: Thursday May 1 2014 20:20:34 AEST PM »

  
  
Hey Aziz where can I get some of what you are on?

Do you mean the infamous "blue pills"(c)(r)(tm)? *LOL*
^

Im not sure. Whatever you are using that makes you so zonked out. It must be good S???.
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Aziz
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« Reply #42 on: Thursday May 1 2014 20:24:34 AEST PM »

  
  
  
Hey Aziz where can I get some of what you are on?

Do you mean the infamous "blue pills"(c)(r)(tm)? *LOL*
^

Im not sure. Whatever you are using that makes you so zonked out. It must be good S???.

That's a good sh1t man! A very good sh1t. *LOL*

No, I'm not taking anything. "Blue pills" doesn't really exist. And I haven't got a beer today... (yet)
It's all based on fun!
smile
^sif
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Aziz
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« Reply #43 on: Thursday May 1 2014 21:52:26 AEST PM »

Hi all,

I have put all together into the zip-file including the coil models (NEC-files).
Just go to the following site, download and install the 4nec2 application:
  

You can load all the NEC-files with 4nec2 and can nicely see, how they made and look. Even in a nice real-time 3D-graphics. Must see them.

The *.ALL files are for BW only. Ignore the *.TXT files.
happy face
Cheers,
^sif

* CoilComp7(CoilCMP4)-05+models.zip (129.78 KB - downloaded 163 times.)
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Aziz
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« Reply #44 on: Thursday May 1 2014 22:05:54 AEST PM »

And this is the "cross-section"-view of the coil bundle of one of the coils using 4nec2.



* Bundle-vs-SpiderCoil05.jpg (142.77 KB, 1024x742 - viewed 272 times.)
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WM6
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« Reply #45 on: Friday May 2 2014 03:34:49 AEST AM »

What could be best inter-conductor distance to coil diameter 25-27cm?

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Aziz
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« Reply #46 on: Friday May 2 2014 05:00:16 AEST AM »

  
What could be best inter-conductor distance to coil diameter 25-27cm?



There isn't any particular "best" criteria WM6.

The rule is simple:
Just make the wire-to-wire distance as much as you can make it to meet the required coil specification (inductance, resistance, capacitance). All the additional loop turns you can make to the coil (compared to an equivalent compact bundle coil), the better it is. So don't make (very) compact bundle coils. The coil bundle should be as "thick" as possible (ideally round bundle but difficult to manufacture or square/rectangular bundle, which should be easier to wind). We save some interwire coil capacitance but on the other hand we have increased coil-to-shield capacitance due to increased thickness of the coil bundle. And we have to use low dielectric constant material between the coil wires, which shouldn't be the insulation of the coil wire.

Regarding to your coil example.
Specify the coil wire diameter (I mean the copper, forget the insulation), the inductance and the outer diameter of the coil bundle and I can give you some approximate values to start with. For the basket/spider coil, I need additionally the total coil wire diameter as well (copper+insulation diameter).

BTW, I never define distances between wires as shown in your picture. The distances I'm referring to apply to the center of the wire to center of the wire.

Cheers,
Aziz
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kazza
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« Reply #47 on: Friday May 2 2014 18:12:45 AEST PM »

Now built a coil, but a spiral one first with small gaps between conductors, simply because this is easy to make. Used the housing of an old 18" coil.
 
The spiral external winding diameter is approximately the same as that of a Minelab 18” and the inside diameter 301mm, 22 turns. Same inductance within 1%.
 
I measured the depth in air very carefully (many averages of the peak audio) for a target that give a reasonably strong signal at 68cm and another ditto at 28cm and got
 
28cm: 30% larger for spiral than mono; 2.3dB louder audio.
 
68cm: 15% larger for spiral than mono; 1.2dB louder audio, or assume inverse 6th law, 2.3% more depth.
 
But I could not in all honestly hear any audio difference when I passed both coils over a just audible target at 68cm in mineralised soil, both gave the same impression of the target loudness.
 
Unfortunately this spiral coil does have for me an unacceptable problem (besides the extra weight): In reality, more nuggets are to be found that are small and at shallow depths, compared to large nuggets at depth, even when using an 18” coil (by overall gold weight too, because those smaller nugget finds sure add up). Unfortunately this coil performs poorly on this size (I think because the field is quite a bit weaker just below the windings?) down to depths of several cm. But I personally rely on this small size nuggets to get my “bread and butter gold fix” as well as when I'm looking for new patches.
 
Now onto the next model with more compact layered windings.
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Aziz
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« Reply #48 on: Friday May 2 2014 19:47:26 AEST PM »

Thank you very much for your effort kazza.
I wonderful proof of the concept.

If you can make the more difficult "thick" bundle PI coil, you will see much more pronounced results.
happy face
Thanks & cheers,
^sif
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Aziz
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« Reply #49 on: Friday May 2 2014 19:57:11 AEST PM »

BTW guys,

one can combine the latest findings with the seperate TX/RX coil principle to overcome the increased EMI noise induction and inherently more ground response.
It is really destined to relative large coils to get more depth detection. Even on mineralized ground. But you have a much faster TX & RX coil.
happy face
Cheers,
Aziz
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« Reply #50 on: Friday May 2 2014 20:19:01 AEST PM »

The admins on Geotech are starting censoring me.
But hey, I merely wanted to get proven wrong.
But they can't do it.
You know, who the real "coil meister" is. *LOL*

^sif
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« Reply #51 on: Friday May 2 2014 21:45:48 AEST PM »

I have followed your work on this forum as well as Geotech. $4oo plus for a large coil for a ML you have saved the DIY (do it yourself) guys heaps. A power source (Battery) is also in the region of $400 there is no design for the DIY system available, also a FM cordless earphone is not available.

Just think how much the poor ordinary man would save if he could make it himself. Thanks for all your effort in providing us with your knowledge.
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Aziz
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« Reply #52 on: Saturday May 3 2014 16:53:51 AEST PM »

  
...
Unfortunately this coil performs poorly on this size (I think because the field is quite a bit weaker just below the windings?) down to depths of several cm.
..

Yes kazza, the magnetic field strenght is a bit weaker just below the windings.
I'll post nice magnetic field strength pictures of the coil models soon.

Aziz
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« Reply #53 on: Saturday May 3 2014 17:38:11 AEST PM »

Hi all,

these are the magnetic field strength pictures of few selected coil examples.
Aziz


* Bundle-vs-SpiderCoil-MF-01.jpg (104.25 KB, 1024x768 - viewed 265 times.)

* Bundle-vs-SpiderCoil-MF-02.jpg (151.47 KB, 1024x768 - viewed 268 times.)

* Bundle-vs-SpiderCoil-MF-03.jpg (122.2 KB, 1024x768 - viewed 260 times.)
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« Reply #54 on: Saturday May 3 2014 17:54:10 AEST PM »

One more.
 happy face


* Bundle-vs-SpiderCoil-MF-04.jpg (167.29 KB, 1024x768 - viewed 272 times.)
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Aziz
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« Reply #55 on: Saturday May 3 2014 18:41:01 AEST PM »

More pics.. smile



* Bundle-vs-SpiderCoil-MF-01-2.jpg (114.16 KB, 1024x768 - viewed 265 times.)

* Bundle-vs-SpiderCoil-MF-02-2.jpg (128.11 KB, 1024x768 - viewed 258 times.)

* Bundle-vs-SpiderCoil-MF-03-2.jpg (120.3 KB, 1024x768 - viewed 245 times.)

* Bundle-vs-SpiderCoil-MF-04-2.jpg (132.07 KB, 1024x768 - viewed 272 times.)
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Aziz
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« Reply #56 on: Saturday May 3 2014 19:03:59 AEST PM »

And now the more pronounced difference of magnetic field strength of a compact ("thin") coil bundle vs. a "thick" coil bundle. I have reduced the color space into 32 colors.
Can you see the difference?
 happy face


* Bundle-vs-SpiderCoil-MF-01-3.jpg (133.12 KB, 1024x768 - viewed 269 times.)

* Bundle-vs-SpiderCoil-MF-04-3.jpg (152.34 KB, 1024x768 - viewed 272 times.)
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« Reply #57 on: Sunday May 4 2014 17:30:51 AEST PM »

Thanks Aziz. Again very interesting!
 
Sorry, it’s going to take quite a long time to build the next model because I cannot use an existing coil housing and of course the windings will be labour intensive. The requirements mean more mass, and because there is no point in making a model if it is too heavy to use, and this will require a lot of extra work.
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Aziz
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« Reply #58 on: Sunday May 4 2014 19:42:08 AEST PM »

  
Thanks Aziz. Again very interesting!
 
Sorry, it’s going to take quite a long time to build the next model because I cannot use an existing coil housing and of course the windings will be labour intensive. The requirements mean more mass, and because there is no point in making a model if it is too heavy to use, and this will require a lot of extra work.

No worries kazza. But..but..but... scared

But the infamous forum-trolls aren't wasting time and are building the high performance PI coils to get all that deep decent size gold first...

(I'm kidding of course.)
Cheers,
Aziz
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Aziz
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« Reply #59 on: Tuesday May 6 2014 16:57:23 AEST PM »

Hi all,

I have released more processing power from my PC yesterday. The cooling of the CPU has been repaired and I can calculate at full speed now.

We have to wait for the forum-trolls to make us further good ideas to check.
(You know, they were always good at it. And we have learned a lot.)

Or feel free to make some proposals directly.
excited excited excited
Cheers,
Aziz
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