This should encourage those trying to make a discriminating Pi

[Doug]

http://golddetecting.4umer.net/t7018p30-c-mon-minelabget-a-move-on
kon61 Today at 10:43 am
“------------------People have to be naive if they believe that the current line of discriminators starting from the 2200 to the 5000 have become more accurate with time-----”
Without prejudice and presented in the public interest
 How true or otherwise it is I don't know but has been alleged by some that ML did have a new discriminating Pi ready to roll out but had to withdraw it because it was alleged that it was likely to be an infringement  of the patent of another party.
But it good to see that some folk are waking up to the ML policy of drip feeding and spin!
Mind you if people on that forum listened to the silly advice of "beepinpete" (never fit a DD coil to the 5000!! ) then any form of discrimination is impossible!
doug

[The Modern Day Prospector]

 (and I now of at least one that may show very soon) this comment came of the same thread from a modder, so does this mean Woody now becomes the hero and everybody jumps on his band wagon.

[Doug]

(and I now of at least one that may show very soon) this comment came of the same thread from a modder, so does this mean Woody now becomes the hero and everybody jumps on his band wagon.

No, I doubt it very much! Ismael is not a fan of Woody! Some of woody's mods came from Ismael!
doug

[Huego]

Good discussion, especially Ismael's posts on how ML detectors have changed over the years on subjects of PI detection depth & discrimination and what most of us want of a future detector.

A very good post by him and one that will make many think.

Huego

[Aziz]

The discrimination dream continues.

But we know, we should dig all targets.
 

So WTF did not even one clever brain invent it till now?

The answer is easy:
The discrimination is not reliable. And this means, it isn't possible as you would wish to have it.

More depth and better ground balance is 1000 times more worth than any discrimination feature!!!
Aziz

[WM6]

More depth and better ground balance is 1000 times more worth than any discrimination feature!!!
Aziz

Only in theory Aziz. More depth mean nothing if you cannot identificate targets or at least distinguish between Ferro/NonFerro targets.

Who are willing to dig 10 or more 1.5m deep holes per day for nothing? Depth only detectors are SND detectors.

[Aziz]

More depth and better ground balance is 1000 times more worth than any discrimination feature!!!
Aziz

Only in theory Aziz. More depth mean nothing if you cannot identificate targets or at least distinguish between Ferro/NonFerro targets.

Who are willing to dig 10 ore more 1.5m deep holes per day for nothing? Depth only detectors are SND detectors.

Bull$hit!

Everyone, who digs deeper will be rewarded well.
Dig for all targets!

Aziz

[WM6]

Everyone, who digs deeper will be rewarded well.

Sure every will be rewarded, with back pain and empty bag.

[Mechanic]

If your search is concentrated to mostly virgin ground, then there will not be very much deep junk there. Most of it will be on or near the surface. When you start pulling some decent bits, sell them and buy the services of a masseuse or 2 that will solve the back ache problem!!!

Cheers Mick

[WM6]

When you start pulling some decent bits, sell them and buy the services of a masseuse or 2 that will solve the back ache problem!!!

"When you start pulling some decent bits" is something hypothetical, but "back ache problems" will be real.

Wish you full success with 2 meter deep holes (mean at least 2kg of pure gold pro hole).

[Reno Chris]

Bull$hit! Everyone, who digs deeper will be rewarded well.
Dig for all targets!

I dont know how much nugget detecting you've done, but while there are places that you can dig everything and its not a problem, there are many places with gold where the old timers worked and left tons of trash. If you dig everything at those locations, you will be digging 300 or more iron trash targets for every nugget. As a result you will give up on that spot after not too many hours as there is just too much trash.

On the other hand, there is no such thing as a perfect discriminator, but prospecting is about the gold you do find - not the gold you miss.

Because of this, tools that help you find gold are useful. Cancel mode on the ML detectors causes a definite loss of sensitivity, but it allows work in areas that would other wise be undetectable. Discrimination is similar in the sense that its not perfect, but it allows work in areas that would otherwise be unworkable.

[bugwhiskers]

Bull$hit! Everyone, who digs deeper will be rewarded well.
Dig for all targets!

I dont know how much nugget detecting you've done, but while there are places that you can dig everything and its not a problem, there are many places with gold where the old timers worked and left tons of trash. If you dig everything at those locations, you will be digging 300 or more iron trash targets for every nugget. As a result you will give up on that spot after not too many hours as there is just too much trash.

On the other hand, there is no such thing as a perfect discriminator, but prospecting is about the gold you do find - not the gold you miss.

Because of this, tools that help you find gold are useful. Cancel mode on the ML detectors causes a definite loss of sensitivity, but it allows work in areas that would other wise be undetectable. Discrimination is similar in the sense that its not perfect, but it allows work in areas that would otherwise be unworkable.

Talking loss of sensitivity, you still haven't answered the questions on Fine gold timing. No more excuses please.

[Steve D]

More depth and better ground balance is 1000 times more worth than any discrimination feature!!!
Aziz

Only in theory Aziz. More depth mean nothing if you cannot identificate targets or at least distinguish between Ferro/NonFerro targets.

Who are willing to dig 10 ore more 1.5m deep holes per day for nothing? Depth only detectors are SND detectors.

[Huego]

More depth and better ground balance is 1000 times more worth than any discrimination feature!!!
Aziz

Only in theory Aziz. More depth mean nothing if you cannot identificate targets or at least distinguish between Ferro/NonFerro targets.

Who are willing to dig 10 ore more 1.5m deep holes per day for nothing? Depth only detectors are SND detectors.

Bull$hit!

Everyone, who digs deeper will be rewarded well.
Dig for all targets!

Aziz

I would "dig all targets" in virgin ground. There, deeper targets are more likely to be of natural origin and gold. Finding virgin ground in & around the edges of goldfields is often what I look for when detecting, but success has been very limited.

Mined & old worked areas will no doubt still have gold in them, in fact may have more gold than the virgin areas, BUT digging all targets here is time & energy consuming. As Mick says, much trash is near the surface but not all. However, old worked areas are still where most of the gold I have found in Vic has been. There is less trash in WA and more (almost) virgin ground fortunately. (Yes, what is almost virgin?)

Discrimination would be very helpful IF it were reliable.

[Huego]

..........

On the other hand, there is no such thing as a perfect discriminator, but prospecting is about the gold you do find - not the gold you miss.

Because of this, tools that help you find gold are useful.
Cancel mode on the ML detectors causes a definite loss of sensitivity, but it allows work in areas that would other wise be undetectable. Discrimination is similar in the sense that its not perfect, but it allows work in areas that would otherwise be unworkable.

......."tools that help you find gold....." seems a trite comment.  Are you referring to specific ML settings eg Cancel, Fine gold, relative to other "normal" settings? Or coil or pick selection???

What do you mean with repect to "discrimination & sensitivity loss" ??

Sounds like you are mostly talking about ML settings.

[WM6]

I would "dig all targets" in virgin ground.

I am (in rule)  digging on all signals too. But this is usually not deeper than 30 cm.

I am usually dig more than 30 such holes on my hiking day without any problem. It is matter of some minutes to dig and to recover such shallow  hole again. I don't care so much if targets are something useful or trash only.

Here we are speaking about holes more than 1m, 1.5m or even more deep. How many such 1.5 miner holes are we willing to dig per day for some artificial or natural trash per day? In real, not by remote from sofa?

[Huego]

I would "dig all targets" in virgin ground.

I am (in rule)  digging on all signals too. But this is usually not deeper than 30 cm.

I am usually dig more than 30 such holes on my hiking day without any problem. It is matter of some minutes to dig and to recover such shallow  hole again. I don't care so much if targets are something useful or trash only.

Here we are speaking about holes more than 1m, 1.5m or even more deep. How many such 1.5 miner holes are we willing to dig per day for some artificial or natural trash per day? In real, not by remote from sofa?

Europe & US are very different from Australia. Australia has a shorter history, no civil wars etc. Much of European (valuable) buried history (coins etc) is buried too like the gold and may appear as a "trash" signal.

In Australia, some goldfield areas have been heavily worked populated by miners and are covered in rubbish but retain gold & occasional (valuable / historical) artifacts. But virgin ground areas also exist where trash is uncommon and faint targets can be deep (large mono etc)

Most of the holes I dig are 8-12",  some down to 18" (45 cm). Most of these are dug down to an impermeable layer of rock or hard clay. I have never dug a hole that approached 3 feet. I may be only able to dig 1 hole like that per day. BUT if that were in "virgin ground" for a deep (large) target and it took all day, I would do it. It would require more than my usual small pick though. It might require a heavy pick, a long-handled shovel + a crow bar, and maybe even some help (to lift the target out!  ). But here, the target would likely not be a cannonball.

Huego  

edited for typos

[WM6]

Well explained, thanks.

[Aziz]

Keep on dreaming guys!
<off-topic flame on>
The only discrimination, that really works is the human discrimination.
<off-topic flame off>

A very simple proof, whether discrimination will work or not:
A piece of thin iron wire formed into a closed-loop coil (conducting loop).

Put this iron ring to your detector and watch.
 
That's all about discrimination.

Dream on!
 
Aziz

[Doug]

Keep on dreaming guys!
<off-topic flame on>
The only discrimination, that really works is the human discrimination.
<off-topic flame off>

A very simple proof, whether discrimination will work or not:
A piece of thin iron wire formed into a closed-loop coil (conducting loop).

Put this iron ring to your detector and watch.
 
That's all about discrimination.

Dream on!
 
Aziz

But how often is an iron inductive loop likely to be encountered?
doug