northwest QED Performance
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link-https://www.facebook.com/groups/245308699667153/403446933853328/?comment_id=403472030517485&reply_comment_id=403476793850342&notif_id=1562580344994993&notif_t=group_comment
Interfacion Pty Ltd is pleased to announce that the QED PI Detector has been modified to allow the use of DD (double D) coils. This change involves a simple change to the electronics within the control box.
The firmware has also been upgraded to include a further improved Ground Balance.
All detectors being delivered to new customers from Monday 5th August 2019 will already have the above upgrades included.
As a show of commitment to all QED owners, the hardware modification to allow use of the DD and CC coils will be provided at no cost.
Of course and as per the QED warranty, the firmware update is provided free of charge, except for P&H.
Any QED owner who plans to attend the Laanecoorie Bash is encouraged to bring their detector along and have it upgraded at no cost.
Standard postage and handling arrangements apply to other owners. Send via Australia Post the box (minus batteries) along with a pre-paid, pre-addressed bag/box to:
Interfacion Pty Ltd
PO Box 106R
Redan VIC 3350
Howard Rockey
Director Interfacion Pty Ltd.

australian electronic gold prospecting forum.com  |  QED users  |  QED users (Moderator: bugwhiskers)  |  Topic: QED Performance 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Goldman
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« on: Friday November 22 2019 10:06:16 AEDT AM »

Hi Everyone,

With the QED setup/settings getting some airplay in recent threads, I have some QED performance graphs that I have produced from my detailed testing conducted many months ago.

These graphs, apart from actual use of the QED in the field, highlight the following:

*)  Its very important to know your THS-B NULL, and as the graphs show, if you are inadvertently over NULL when you should be below NULL, then you will be missing gold. The first A Vs B graph is with a .14g nugget using a Sadie.

*)  The graphs also show that as you go OVER NULL, sensitivity to small gold decreases significantly. This is the reason I have been saying that you must know your NULL, as setting THS-B correctly with small/medium coil looking for small gold is vitally important - you will miss gold if you are higher than NULL, conversely you will pick up more small gold the further under NULL you can go relative to the THS-A setting you have chosen.

*) The graphs also show a significant depth increase as you increase THS-A, even more depth by going UNDER NULL for small gold, and more depth by going ABOVE NULL for large gold.


GAIN
Gain is not linear, rather is Logarithmic. Biggest performance is between 1 to 6, with less sensitivity/depth increase from six to 10 when compared with 1 - 6.


Cheers
Goldman


* A Vs B.png (34.61 KB, 825x553 - viewed 261 times.)

* A Vs B 9g nugget.png (32.09 KB, 931x464 - viewed 262 times.)

* A Vs B 15 evo 9g.png (22.29 KB, 931x375 - viewed 264 times.)

* gain.png (13.42 KB, 501x387 - viewed 256 times.)
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GARY
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« Reply #1 on: Friday November 22 2019 10:45:12 AEDT AM »

Thanks Goldman, interesting test results.

Gary.

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« Reply #2 on: Friday November 22 2019 14:14:27 AEDT PM »

That's really neat Goldman, thanks.
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Dave63
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« Reply #3 on: Friday November 22 2019 18:05:35 AEDT PM »

Thx Goldman. Excellent Info
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WM6
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« Reply #4 on: Saturday November 23 2019 01:06:46 AEDT AM »

Hi Goldman

Very interesting results.

Did you try to detect your bare hand with QED in air.

At which distance QED is able to detect bare hand in air?

And, please, if you can get somewhere medicinal stainless syringe needle, test detecting distance
for syringe needle using QED (here kindergarten and schools are very interested in clean such stuff
from their playground and house environment, but almost no detector is able to find those needle
laying between grass on soil surface, curious if QED can).

Thank you.
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« Reply #5 on: Saturday November 23 2019 01:34:25 AEDT AM »

The graphs are an excellent representation of what the QED’s settings are capable of and achieve on both a tiny 0.14 gram nugget using a small coil and on a much larger 9 gram nugget using a larger coil.

The best result in the graph of 8.25 inches on the 9 gram nugget with the QED and 15”Evo is not too impressive with THS-B raised up 6 positions above Null for increased depth on larger gold and THS-A raised up for a significant depth increase as Goldman says, as you increase THS-A, and in this case up from 30 to 60. Even using Mode 12 which would work well on a nugget of that size.

Also I wonder what size nugget was used for the Gain graph with the 11”Elite maybe the 9 gram one?
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Goldman
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« Reply #6 on: Sunday November 24 2019 16:35:09 AEDT PM »

Hi everyone,

The testing was not aimed at determining depths, rather to
1) determine/show the target response profiles that THS-B has on sensitivity to small and larger targets by going either as far below NULL and above NULL as possible, which I believe the graphs show quite well. This helps people understand what happens to target response if they for example go (either by accident or by choice) above NULL with a small coil looking for small gold - result = missed gold.

2) show the effect on target sensitivity/depth profile when increasing THS-A.

3) understand the non-linear effect of increasing Gain. The setting here for the 9g nugget, mode 3; A=40; B = NULL; regardless of settings, gain is non-linear.

As these tests were NOT performed to show depths, rather the target response profiles, I had to drop the gain to 1 for the highest THS-A tests, thus even though at first look the depths for the 15” EVO seem less than impressive, they in fact are very impressive considering that Gain was only 1.

I am more than willing to publish the raw figures for these graphs ( for complete transparency) if that is something that people want.

Cheers Goldman



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GARY
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« Reply #7 on: Sunday November 24 2019 17:47:15 AEDT PM »

  

3) understand the non-linear effect of increasing Gain. The setting here for the 9g nugget, mode 3; A=40; B = NULL; regardless of settings, gain is non-linear.

I am more than willing to publish the raw figures for these graphs ( for complete transparency) if that is something that people want.

Cheers Goldman


Goldman when you say GAIN is non-liner then your GAIN graph (if my calculations are correct) displays when raising the GAIN from 1 up to 5 it produced an 17.2% increase and from 5 up to 10 only 4.4% increase.

Regarding the raw figures for the graphs I would be interested in those results.

Thanks again for the efforts you go to that help gain an understanding of the QED.

Gary.

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« Reply #8 on: Sunday November 24 2019 19:57:58 AEDT PM »

Thanks Brian
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GARY
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« Reply #9 on: Monday November 25 2019 13:17:56 AEDT PM »

  
Hi Goldman

Very interesting results.

Did you try to detect your bare hand with QED in air.

At which distance QED is able to detect bare hand in air?

And, please, if you can get somewhere medicinal stainless syringe needle, test detecting distance
for syringe needle using QED (here kindergarten and schools are very interested in clean such stuff
from their playground and house environment, but almost no detector is able to find those needle
laying between grass on soil surface, curious if QED can).

Thank you.

Tried to see if my QED with 8" mono coil would detect my hand using the most sensitive settings that I could manage THS-B ( as low as I could set it below Null) THS-A 60, GAIN 10 & MODE 1 and no response.

In regards to the syringe needle I recall Eric F saying to find a broken off needle tips in clothing material he used a PI with a high pulse rate of 100K pulses per sec and a sample of 1uS after the TX switch off. The coil was a 4 layer pcb with integral shielding and inductance of 30uH. He also mentioned the PI could detect a 1mm diameter sphere of bronze that is a test standard in the food industry.

Now my question is would you need this type of PI and coil to detect a syringe needle which I assume is different to a sewing needle?

Gary.
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egixe4
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« Reply #10 on: Monday November 25 2019 14:42:09 AEDT PM »

The syringe needle being hollow causes the issue with detection.
Sewing needles are solid.

Cheers,

Mal






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GARY
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« Reply #11 on: Monday November 25 2019 14:46:32 AEDT PM »

Yes thanks Mal and I wonder then are both needles made of different metal composition?

Also I always thought a target with a hole in the middle is detectable more so than a solid target.

Gary.
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« Reply #12 on: Monday November 25 2019 15:34:50 AEDT PM »

Yes I agree, I always thought that a target with a hole was more Detectable
It is in the case of coins.

I wonder if the hollow needle side on is the difference?
One would think the syringe needle would be made of High quality Stainless.
not sure about the sewing Needles.

Mal



 

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« Reply #13 on: Tuesday November 26 2019 01:06:23 AEDT AM »

“Goldman when you say GAIN is non-liner then your GAIN graph (if my calculations are correct) displays when raising the GAIN from 1 up to 5 it produced an 17.2% increase and from 5 up to 10 only 4.4% increase.

Regarding the raw figures for the graphs I would be interested in those results.

Thanks again for the efforts you go to that help gain an understanding of the QED”   If those numbers are correct, that is a significant piece of information to have when determining the gain setting. Now might be willing to trade a little gain for a lower mode setting etc.
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WM6
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« Reply #14 on: Wednesday November 27 2019 12:00:29 AEDT PM »

  
  
Hi Goldman

Very interesting results.

Did you try to detect your bare hand with QED in air.

At which distance QED is able to detect bare hand in air?

And, please, if you can get somewhere medicinal stainless syringe needle, test detecting distance
for syringe needle using QED (here kindergarten and schools are very interested in clean such stuff
from their playground and house environment, but almost no detector is able to find those needle
laying between grass on soil surface, curious if QED can).

Thank you.

Tried to see if my QED with 8" mono coil would detect my hand using the most sensitive settings that I could manage THS-B ( as low as I could set it below Null) THS-A 60, GAIN 10 & MODE 1 and no response.

In regards to the syringe needle I recall Eric F saying to find a broken off needle tips in clothing material he used a PI with a high pulse rate of 100K pulses per sec and a sample of 1uS after the TX switch off. The coil was a 4 layer pcb with integral shielding and inductance of 30uH. He also mentioned the PI could detect a 1mm diameter sphere of bronze that is a test standard in the food industry.

Now my question is would you need this type of PI and coil to detect a syringe needle which I assume is different to a sewing needle?

Gary.

Hi Gary

Thank you for checking.

Detector dealer (who lent me most detectors for test) here is coming a couple years ago
with initiative to test all testing detectors to syringe needle.

As he say he got demand from kindergarten and schools where on their places usually
overnight drug addictive individuals left syringe (sometimes AIDS infected).

They need a such sensitive detectors to clean kindergarten and schools playground and environment.
Till now they are limited to eye-catch such to kinder dangerous residue.

I tested over 50 detectors of different brand and technologies but no one was able to detect syringe
needle to usable distance. Some of VLF prospecting models was even able to detect bare hand, but
no syringe needle.

Most of detectors are able to detect sewing needle, even those half smaller than syringe needle.
What are differences in alloy used between syringe needle and sewing needle, I am not sure,
first one is made from some sort of stainless steel  that has no ferromagnetic properties (magnet didn't
catch it). On other side magnet easily catch sewing needle and almost all prospecting detectors easily detect it.

Reading about QED high sensitivity to tiny gold I was in hope, that this technology could
perform better than most others in case of syringe needle too. But maybe we need smaller coil
and some programming adaptation.

If you are interested in some more of such test I can sent you sample of syringe needle.
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WM6
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« Reply #15 on: Wednesday November 27 2019 12:08:00 AEDT PM »

  
Yes I agree, I always thought that a target with a hole was more Detectable
It is in the case of coins.

I wonder if the hollow needle side on is the difference?
One would think the syringe needle would be made of High quality Stainless.
not sure about the sewing Needles.

Mal


Hi egixe4

Seem that hollow structure is not primary reason that syringe needle is not detectable.

As you remark, it could be High quality Stainless that are not Ferromagnetic (in comparison to
sewing needle) that causes difference. Small sewing needle is detectable 3x bigger syringe needle
is not.
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« Reply #16 on: Wednesday November 27 2019 22:49:25 AEDT PM »

Hi WM6,

Your right, the hollow needle is not the primary reason, it was the first reason/difference I thought of.
Then Gary correctly reminded me that being hollow, should make the syringe needle more detectable.
I had forgotten the Basics from George-Overton and Carl Morelands book.

So we have to put it down to the steel used, Sewing needles rust rather quickly, syringe needles don't.

Cheers,

Mal


 

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GARY
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« Reply #17 on: Wednesday November 27 2019 22:50:46 AEDT PM »

  

Hi Gary

Reading about QED high sensitivity to tiny gold I was in hope, that this technology could
perform better than most others in case of syringe needle too. But maybe we need smaller coil
and some programming adaptation.

If you are interested in some more of such test I can sent you sample of syringe needle.


Hello WM6,

I recall following discussions a long time ago on Hypodermic needles involving yourself. You mentioned you had an Garret Infinium with an 8" coil that could not detect the hypo needle at all not even when touching the coil although a sporadic one-way signal with Garrett AT Gold, from almost touch the coil, but nothing significant. However you did say the AT Gold can detect your hand.

As you say places that drug addictive individuals may leave these types of needles where children frequent and NOT being unable to detect them is worrying as well also beach & parkland environments.

I have performed some sensitivity tests with the QED and 8”round mono coil using Aluminium baking foil that I measured its thickness with a micrometer at 0.01mm (0.0004”).

I cut squares out of the Aluminum foil ranging in sizes, 38mm (1.5”), 25mm (1”) , 12mm (0.5”), & 6mm (0.25”) . The most difficult size to detect was the 6mm square piece only when touching the coil. The test was done in my backyard and due to suburban environment unable to wind the GAIN up with the lowest THS-B that I was able to achieve

Now in regards to the QED being able to detect a hypo needle then as Eric Foster has said, looking for a thin tube of high grade stainless steel is extremely hard for any method as he could not with his fastest PI unit at 1uS delay with a 2.5inch coil.

Gary.
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WM6
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« Reply #18 on: Thursday November 28 2019 05:54:10 AEDT AM »

  

... as Eric Foster has said, looking for a thin tube of high grade stainless steel is extremely hard for any method as he could not with his fastest PI unit at 1uS delay with a 2.5inch coil.

Gary.


Thanks Garry

Probably the only remaining solution to this health hazard, is with hypo-needle alloy producer - to add something
more detectable (probably some more ferromagnetic like nickel or more conductive like copper) in needle alloy.
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« Reply #19 on: Thursday November 28 2019 09:01:04 AEDT AM »

  

Then Gary correctly reminded me that being hollow, should make the syringe needle more detectable.
I had forgotten the Basics from George-Overton and Carl Morelands book..

Cheers,

Mal


Hello Mal,

When I mentioned a target with a hole in the middle is detectable more so than a solid target I remember a funny situation several years ago when my friend could not work out why his detector appeared noisy when swinging his 20” mono coil. Also when he bent down towards the coil when checking targets. It was not until we realised the rim around his hat had a piece of wire running around its circumference to stiffen it which the detector was reacting to. Once we knew that we waved his hat, with that circle of wire, above the 20” coil and his hat was easily detectable at eye level, no doubt that hat never saw the light of the day on another detecting trip.

As I said to WM6 when I recall a discussion in regards to the hypo needles I also recall another post by a fellow saying he couldn't detect a 39 mm piece of 0.8mm diameter 60/40 Rosin Core Solder until he twisted the solder into a circle.

I cannot recall if he mentioned what detector and coil he used so my next test, being the test addict that I am, is to see if the QED and 8” mono can detect a 39mm length of 0.8mm diameter Rosin Core 60/40 Solder that I just happen to have which I use for any small soldering jobs. If that length is detectable maybe then shorten in lengths similar to the Aluminium foil or will have to twist into ever decreasing circles as in the pic below.

 It will only prove nothing other than for my curiosity due the QED’s sensitivity with a variety of settings.

Gary.


* 0.8mm Solder targets.jpg (61.61 KB, 700x400 - viewed 69 times.)
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